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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, December 28 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1591<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Vilani Language (Was Re: Vilani Elvis)<BR>
Re Purina * Chow<BR>
Re: Purina, etc.<BR>
Re: Re Image Formats<BR>
Re: Drawing Program - longish<BR>
Re: Graphics<BR>
Re: Terran polities<BR>
Re: Purina etc.<BR>
GT Ship Damage Tables[Long]<BR>
Missing posts<BR>
Re: Keyboard Kills Since 20 Oct 99<BR>
Re: Vilani Language (Was Re: Vilani Elvis)<BR>
Re: Ethnic confusion<BR>
RE: Purina, etc.<BR>
Re: Purina<BR>
Re: Drawing Program<BR>
Re: Keyboard Kills Since 20 Oct 99<BR>
Re: Ethnic confusion<BR>
Re: Ethnic confusion<BR>
Re: Keyboard Kills Since 20 Oct 99<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 23:52:04 +1300<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Language (Was Re: Vilani Elvis)<BR>
<BR>
Date sent:      	Tue, 28 Dec 1999 05:06:00 -0500<BR>
From:           	"Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
<BR>
> OK I admit it. NOW I'm lost! How did Sumerian become the basis for the<BR>
> Vilani language when the culture didn't exist 300,000 years ago?<BR>
<BR>
There are two parts to this answer<BR>
<BR>
1 - When Marc Millar et al were developing the game "Imperium" they used<BR>
Summerian sound frequencies (ie the frequency with which vowel and<BR>
consonent sounds appear in a language) to generate Vilani names.<BR>
<BR>
2 - Many people then extrapolate out from this that in the Traveller Universe,<BR>
the Summerian civilisation was founded by a group of errant Vilani.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Andrew etc<BR>
Homepage http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/<BR>
Traveller http://www.downport.com/amv/<BR>
 "What do you expect from a species who's females are<BR>
 always in heat" Ko of the Ilui clan on Humans and honour<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 02:02:48 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Purina * Chow<BR>
<BR>
>>Some of us have joked about making a special order for "Purina Human<BR>
>>Chow" and putting some in the Hospitality Suite at cons. :-)<BR>
><BR>
>Has nobody noticed Bachelor Chow on Futurama?<BR>
><BR>
Some of us (well, at least myself) wish we'd never seen futurama, but yeah,<BR>
I noticed it.<BR>
<BR>
Kibble is a staple of street-level cyberpunk. (Pun intentional) But just<BR>
watch the reactions when you explain to a CP2020 player exactly what Kibble<BR>
means...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 02:20:19 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Purina, etc.<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I'm a member of the Society for Creative Anachronism.  Within<BR>
> that organization, I am a herald.  A number of years ago, I was a<BR>
> member of a group that examined requested coats of arms, and<BR>
> advised whether they were compatible with the rules and styles<BR>
> set forth by the SCA.  One of the submissions, associated with<BR>
> the name "Justinian the Sluggard", was blazoned (described) as<BR>
> follows:<BR>
><BR>
> Chequey of three, gules and argent, a slug passant sable.<BR>
><BR>
> For those not savvy in the language of heraldic blazon, this<BR>
> submission consisted of a field of nine squares, alternately red<BR>
> and white (five red, four white, the center and four corners were<BR>
> red), and in the center was the black profile of a large slug.<BR>
><BR>
> The immediate reaction of every herald at that commenting meeting<BR>
> was "Purina Slug Chow".<BR>
<BR>
Well, if my submission (yes, I *finally* got around to submitting a<BR>
name, device, and badge) shows up at one of your commenting parties, be<BR>
kind:<BR>
<BR>
Argent, a base undy azure, in Cheif a natural dolphin bowed, azure.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 02:22:39 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re Image Formats<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The only format I consider decent for vector art is eps. <BR>
><BR>
> PNG? What the hell is that? (Yes, I know what it is, but no one uses<BR>
> it (least not for press)).<BR>
><BR>
> EPS is portable, and a good choice for vector stuff. If you also<BR>
> have text, why not just PDF the sucker? (have it include the fonts<BR>
> if you have some reason to want the exact font you used).<BR>
<BR>
The best argument against PDF is that as of versuion 3 (or was it<BR>
version 2) there is *no* DOS viewer. Unlike most of these other<BR>
format's you need a simply *huge* program to view PDF.<BR>
<BR>
And as I recall, EPS isn't much better.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 02:24:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Drawing Program - longish<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Yes, but you see, you (and the others most likely) have had formal training<BR>
> on computers.  I have had none at all.  I had to learn on my own, so even<BR>
> this day I don't know much.  I know BASIC good but its a dead language.  I<BR>
> have Visual Basic 4.0 but it makes no sense to me at all when I try to<BR>
> program in it.  I also have Visual C++ 6.0 which is also collecting dust.  I<BR>
> thought I could make the leap from BASIC to these higher languages but so<BR>
> far simple understanding of the mechanics eludes me.  I have a BASIC program<BR>
> I've been wanting to port to Visual C++ in order to make it a seamless<BR>
> application within my Win95 system.  I realize switching to these new<BR>
> languages requires a major paradigm shift but so far I've not been up to the<BR>
> task.  So now it's been a few years since I did any coding.  :)<BR>
<BR>
It's more likely that things like Visual Basic are *event*-driven,<BR>
while your older BASIC programs were procedural. That's a *big* shift<BR>
(and one I'm not that comfortable with yet).<BR>
<BR>
In procedural programs, you write a bunch of procedures and run them in<BR>
the needed order. This is determined by the programmer. <BR>
<BR>
In event-driven code, the code basicly sits in a loop waiting for<BR>
"events" (mouse clicks, keystrokes, etc). It then jumps to procedures<BR>
for handling the event.<BR>
<BR>
The programmer has very little control over the "flow" of the program.<BR>
<BR>
ps. as far as the job market is concerned, I have neither training nor<BR>
much experience.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 02:30:38 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Graphics<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Hit the Telegrafix web site and get their RIP add-on for your browser.<BR>
>>It even supports Bezier curves.<BR>
>><BR>
>>> [1] by stock, I mean AS IT INSTALLS. No plug ins from ohter packages. <BR>
> Yeah,<BR>
>>> NS and IE, with the acrbat plug, will display acrobat pdfs....<BR>
>><BR>
>>Oh, ok, in that case RIP doesn't count either. But it's a damn good<BR>
>>start. I rather hope they manage to survive and get some market share.<BR>
>>Currently, I think the problem is the abysmal quality of most RIP<BR>
>>drawing programs. Especially the edit functions.<BR>
><BR>
> Sadly, Telegrafix doesn't have a mac plug-in. They announced (in their<BR>
> press releases section) that one should have been available by mid year<BR>
> 1999...<BR>
><BR>
> as I said, I have used RIPterm on a 386/sx over a 14.4... it resolved as<BR>
> fast as .GIF and .html over a cable modem on my 6100/60... If they did RIP<BR>
> stuff for the mac, I'd buy a copy, and use it for WORK!<BR>
<BR>
Write them and tell them that!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 02:32:01 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Terran polities<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Actually, there are two sets of laws in the uSA.  The<BR>
> oldest is called Common Law and is decended from<BR>
> English Common Law.  The second is Equity Law and is<BR>
> also derived from English Equity Law, which was<BR>
> decended from Roman Law.  A citizen is actually not<BR>
> bound by Equity Law unless s/he decides to be so<BR>
> bound.<BR>
<BR>
Jason, this is the second time you've said omething like this. I<BR>
suggest that before you get yourself into a *world* of trouble, you ask<BR>
the people who've told you that you aren't bound by what you call<BR>
"Equity Law" unless you choosde to be to provide citations for cases in<BR>
modern US law where this "defense" has been used *successfuully*. <BR>
<BR>
To be blunt, it's *not* your choice. Everyone that has tried this as a<BR>
defense has been convicted. You live in the US, you are bound by the<BR>
laws of the US.<BR>
<BR>
Any further discussion of this is off-topic, and should be taken off<BR>
list. As should any further assertions about not being bound by US<BR>
civil and criminal laws. <BR>
<BR>
Discussion of hypothetical future societys that *do* operate in the<BR>
manner alleged may be on topic.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 02:38:21 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Purina etc.<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>>Purina Mills makes hundreds of types of Purina * Chow, mainly for zoos, <BR>
> etc.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Kirsten and I have been joking for years about needing to buy Teddy Bear<BR>
>>Chow before the angry mob of teddy bears goes beserk.<BR>
<BR>
>  They also make Purina Bachelor Chow, but they CALL it Macaroni & Cheese...<BR>
<BR>
Nope. Doesn't count. Mac & cheese requires *cooking*. "People chow" has<BR>
to be edible direct from the shipping container.<BR>
<BR>
It also has to be suitable as a long term diet (ie you have to be able<BR>
to live on "people chow" and watere *indefinitely* without coming down<BR>
with deficiency diseases or other nutriotion related disorders).<BR>
<BR>
I'm certain that some world *have* something like this, and use it for<BR>
feeding prisoners and/or welfare clients.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 06:58:34 -0600<BR>
From: "shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: GT Ship Damage Tables[Long]<BR>
<BR>
Ok, heres the *Rough* draft, this has none of the space opera stuff <BR>
in it etc....<BR>
<BR>
Revised GURPS Traveller Starship Damage Tables:<BR>
<BR>
Use the Damage Determination Tables from GURPS <BR>
Space<BR>
<BR>
Light Damage:<BR>
Roll 1D20: <BR>
01:  Ship Shaken up, all subsequent rolls <BR>
involving ship operations<BR>
       are at a -1, requires 3 DCR to Fix.<BR>
02:  Maneuver Drive Damaged: Ship at -10% G <BR>
Rating<BR>
03: 1 Weapon Turret/Battery of attackers choice <BR>
damaged, DCR -3 to repair.<BR>
04: Life Support Units Damaged, lose 10% of <BR>
nornal Capacity<BR>
05: Roll 1D6: on 1-4 Passive sensors damaged, 5-<BR>
6 Active sensors damaged<BR>
      all sensor rolls at -3, halve firepower of <BR>
 non missile weapons, unless weapons are fired <BR>
on local control, in wich case firepower is at <BR>
75%<BR>
06:  Powerplant or capacitor bank damaged, Loses <BR>
10% of of its base capacity<BR>
       This may be rolled more than once.<BR>
07: One weapon in 6 is damaged, each is at -1 to <BR>
hit on PD<BR>
08: One Random Accessory is damaged.<BR>
09:  One Small/Auxilary Craft is damaged, apply <BR>
a medium Damage result to it.<BR>
10:  Hangar Bay Door Jammed, Craft cannot launch <BR>
or land til repaired.<BR>
11:  Fuel Tank Hit: Lose 10% of Fuel Tankage[Can <BR>
be rolled more than once]<BR>
12:  Ships Landing Gear Destroyed, must be <BR>
repaired in space, or ship must<BR>
       bellyland.<BR>
13:  Cargo Area Shaken Up: 25% chance of cargo <BR>
damage:<BR>
14:  Passenger Area Shaken up: All passengers <BR>
take 1D of damage.<BR>
15:  Hangar Deck Shaken up: each small craft <BR>
takes one light damage roll.<BR>
16: Jump Drive Damage as in #2:<BR>
17: Ships galley damaged, lose 10% of stored <BR>
supplies.<BR>
18: Gunnery Station Damaged, One Battery/Turret <BR>
out of action as per #3<BR>
19: Magazine Area Shaken, reloading mechanism <BR>
jammed, -3 DCR to fix.<BR>
20:  Hull Damaged, Fuel Scoops operate at 50% <BR>
til repaired<BR>
21:  Armor Integrity Damaged: Lose 10% of Base DR<BR>
22:  Damage causes Maneuver drive power to <BR>
fluctuate roll 1D6, on a 1-3 subtract 10% from<BR>
the G Rating, on a 4-5 add 10% to the G Rating, <BR>
on a 6 drive sputters cutting G Rating in half<BR>
for one turn.<BR>
22: Sick Bay Damaged: all Treatment rolls are at <BR>
- -2<BR>
23. minor Jump Grid Damage, all rolls for a <BR>
successful jump are at -2<BR>
24. Power Plant Malfunction: treat as per 22 <BR>
above, but apply to power output.<BR>
<BR>
Medium Damage:<BR>
01:  as per 01 Light Damage, but -2, -4 DCR<BR>
02: as per 02LD but 20% loss<BR>
03: Spinal Mount FC or MFD Damaged, all weapons <BR>
fire on local control til fixed.<BR>
04: Life Support Damaged: -30% Capacity<BR>
05: Ships Computer Damaged: all rolls requiring <BR>
computer assistance at -3<BR>
06: as per LD06: but lose 25%<BR>
07:  as per LD07: but knocked out<BR>
08:  Artificial Gravity Knocked out<BR>
09: Bridge Hit: all rolls by ships personel at -<BR>
1, DCR at -3<BR>
10: Ships Worskshop damaged, all repair rolls at <BR>
- -4<BR>
11: Fuel Tanks Holed: lose 25% of tankage<BR>
12: Communications Array Knocked out, ship <BR>
cannot communicate with other ships<BR>
13: Cargo Area Damaged: 10% of cargo destroyed.<BR>
14:  Passenger Area Damaged: each passenger <BR>
takes 2D6<BR>
15: Hangar Deck Damaged: Each Small Craft takes <BR>
1L and 1M damage roll<BR>
16: Jump Drive damaged as in #2 above<BR>
17: Random Compartment loses integrity to vacumn <BR>
18:  Astrogation/Navigation computer  Damaged, <BR>
Course/Jump Plotting takes 3* normal<BR>
19:  Maneuvering Thrusters damaged, Ship must <BR>
maintain current course for 2 turns.<BR>
20:  Damage causes a fire in a random <BR>
compartment, all actions in that compartment are<BR>
at -4, requires 2 DCR to stop. If not fixed, <BR>
fire does 6D6*10 internal damage per turn.<BR>
21:  Armor Integrity Damaged: Lose 25% of base DR<BR>
22: Low Berth Area Damaged: roll survival rolls <BR>
for any occupants <BR>
23: Point Defense Fire Control KO'd<BR>
24: Major Jump Grid Damage, all rolls for a <BR>
successful jump are at -4<BR>
<BR>
Heavy Damage: <BR>
01:  Powerplant or Capacitor Bank destroyed, <BR>
Ship is dead in space.<BR>
02: Maneuver Drive at Half Capacity<BR>
03:  Spinal Mount or 1 Main Battery Destroyed<BR>
04:  1 Screen Destroyed, or Sensors KO<BR>
05:  Ships Computer Destroyed, all FP and <BR>
Manuevering at Half, no Jump<BR>
06: Major Structural Damage to Hull, Reduce Hull <BR>
Integrity by 1D6<BR>
07: Roll 1D for each weapon, destroyed on a 6,<BR>
08: Artificial Gravity Destroyed<BR>
09: Bridge Destroyed<BR>
10:  MFD/Fire Control Destroyed<BR>
11: Fuel Tankage completely holed<BR>
12:  Screen Destroyed, or 1 Sensor<BR>
13: Cargo Bay Destroyed<BR>
14: Passenger area opened to vacum<BR>
15:  Hangar Bay destroyed, all small craft take 1L/1M/1H<BR>
16: Jump Drive at Half Capacity<BR>
17:  Powerplant or Capacitor Bank knocked out for 1 Turn<BR>
18: Armor Integrity badly Damaged: lose 50% of base DR<BR>
19: catastrophic jump grid damage, any attempt to jump will result<BR>
in an automatic misjump.<BR>
20: Maneuver drive is torn loose from its <BR>
mountings, causing the drive to shut down <BR>
completely, but not before doing an additional <BR>
6D*50 per G of current velocity.<BR>
<BR>
Disastrous Damage:<BR>
01:  Tremendous chain reaction explosion tears <BR>
ship apart. BOOM, generous DM's may allow <BR>
players a survival roll at major penalties to <BR>
reach a lifeboat in time.<BR>
02: Magazine hit:  Ship Takes 6D*10 per missile <BR>
left in magazine, crew killed, 2 fires started.<BR>
03:  Major Structural Damage Snaps ship in half, <BR>
 survival rolls at -4 for crew to evacuate.<BR>
04: Bridge Destroyed: All Command Crew Killed<BR>
05:  Jump Drive Destroyed<BR>
06: Maneuver Drive Destroyed<BR>
07: Powerplant Destroyed, 50% of a catasptrophic <BR>
explosion as per #1<BR>
08: Armor Integrity ruined, lose 90$ of the base <BR>
DR, 2 compartments evacuated to space.<BR>
<BR>
Disastrous damage is only rolled if the target <BR>
takes more than 50% of its Hit Points in a <BR>
single hit/salvo<BR>
Any disastrous damage rolls should be made <BR>
immediately, as it could make any other rolls a <BR>
moot point.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Shadowcat AKA Kevin Walsh<BR>
Captain of the Free Trader Beowulf<BR>
ADD/ADHD Advocate<BR>
http://www.advancenet.net/~meow<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 14:20:07 -0000<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Missing posts<BR>
<BR>
Must be the excess of Xmas spirit, but I've only just noticed I am<BR>
seeing replies to posts without seeing the original. Looks like some<BR>
of the list is getting expired off before it gets delivered to<BR>
everyone. Anyone else have the same problem?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 07:31:33 -0700<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Kills Since 20 Oct 99<BR>
<BR>
>> Checking my archives (nearly 7,000 posts since 20 Oct 99), I find the<BR>
>> following information concerning TML keyboard kills (listd as:  Date,<BR>
>> Victim, Killer):<BR>
><BR>
>We need to start collecting data on what the spewed fluids are.  I'd be<BR>
>curious to know what TML'ers drink while they read the list.  Or try to.<BR>
<BR>
I'm curious as to what it was that caused the spew in the first place.<BR>
Such a list would likely be an amusing read. (And I can't remember what<BR>
it was that caused me to be a victim...)<BR>
<BR>
BTW, to answer your question: Dr. Pepper.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 10:06:45 EST<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Language (Was Re: Vilani Elvis)<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 12/28/99 5:11:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
macmanjws@earthlink.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
> OK I admit it. NOW I'm lost! How did Sumerian become the basis for the<BR>
>  Vilani language when the culture didn't exist 300,000 years ago?<BR>
<BR>
The random-syllable tables that were developed for Vilani have the result of<BR>
making Vilani sound (superficially) like Sumerian.  And that a few Vilani<BR>
words and names have been deliberately constructed to match Sumerian<BR>
words.  Why this was done, you'll have to ask someone who was around<BR>
at the Creation.  I suspect it was simply to make Vilani sound authentic<BR>
but exotic. . .but some folks have inferred an in-game connection between<BR>
the Vilani and Sumeria.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 16:31:52 +0100 (MET)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Ethnic confusion<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>All the available in-game evidence show that _Homo antiquitus_ was already<BR>
>>_Homo sapiens_. If the Real World don't like that, I think the Real World<BR>
>>should take a hike.<BR>
> <BR>
>Actually, it doesn't matter. You see, after 300,000 years of *differing*<BR>
>selection pressures, the odds are that no matter *what* species you started<BR>
>with, more than a few of the enclaves would no longer be interfertile with <BR>
>the others. <BR>
<BR>
Such are the odds, yes. Of course, _Solomani_ claims that the human races<BR>
beat the odds and that all surviving human races are interfertile. As I<BR>
said in an earlier post, I think that's going too far in the other<BR>
direction. I think that_some_ human races ought to have diverged more <BR>
than that, but that's just my opinion. Canon says otherwise.<BR>
<BR>
But it does matter, because you can't apply the logic the other way round.<BR>
If _Homo sapiens sapiens_ has diverged so much from _Homo <something><BR>
antiquitus_ that we are no longer interfertile with it, _Homo sap_ would<BR>
not be interfertile with ANY of _Homo antiquitus'_ other descendents.<BR>
 <BR>
>It doesn't *matter* which species you started with. And remember, we<BR>
>don't know if *time* seperated "species" such as Homo sapiens and Homo<BR>
>erectus would be interfertile.<BR>
<BR>
No, but if we could somehow prove that _Homo sapiens sapiens_ and _Homo<BR>
erectus_ WERE interfertile, then _Homo erectus_ would actually be _Homo<BR>
sapiens erectus_, not _Homo erectus_. That's the whole point of the<BR>
taxonomic difference between species and sub-species.<BR>
 <BR>
>Also, keep in mind that after 2-3 *million* years of (genetic) seperation,<BR>
>it's thought that humans and chimps may be interfertile. <BR>
<BR>
Enough to produce fertile offspring? You'd have to show me a second-generation<BR>
_Homo chimp_ to convince me of that.<BR>
<BR>
And Thomas Vickers writes:<BR>
<BR>
>So, if Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals can interbreed as is now strongly<BR>
>suggested what are the chances that all the humans can interbreed in <BR>
>the 3I?<BR>
<BR>
If modern man and neanderthals could interbreed, neanderthal would be a<BR>
sub-species of _Homo sapiens_. And whether they could or not has no bearing<BR>
whatsoever on whether all the humans of the 3rd Imperium can interbreed or<BR>
not. According to _Solomani_, they can, so the chance that they can is 100%.<BR>
<BR>
How plausible this is is a quite different question. Personally I'd say 'not<BR>
very', and I wouldn't mind it if the Powers That Be changed the canon a bit<BR>
here. But that actually has nothing to do with my original points, which were<BR>
that 1) any human race capable of interbreeding with _Homo sapiens sapiens_<BR>
is a subspecies of _Homo sapiens_ not a separate species, and 2) that if even<BR>
a single extraterrestial human race is capable of interbreeding with _Homo<BR>
sapiens sapiens_, then their closest common ancestor (ie. the hominids the<BR>
Ancients collected 300,000 years ago) was also a subspecies of _Homo sapiens_.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
"Look! Smoke signals! Can you read them, Chief?"<BR>
<BR>
"Of course. Ah... 'Puff, puff puff, puff; puff, puff puff, puff,<BR>
apostrophe puff, puff, puff puff, exclamation puff'.<BR>
<BR>
"What does it mean?"<BR>
<BR>
"'Help, my blanket's caught fire!'"<BR>
<BR>
                                --- _Round the Horne_ radio sketch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 09:27:30 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Purina, etc.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]<BR>
> Some of us have joked about making a special order for "Purina Human<BR>
> Chow" and putting some in the Hospitality Suite at cons. :-)<BR>
<BR>
There is an 'advertisement' in a supplement for the old FASA Star Trek RPG<BR>
where it lists:<BR>
<BR>
Andorian Chow<BR>
Vulcan Chow<BR>
Terran Chow<BR>
and<BR>
Terran Chow with Cheese<BR>
<BR>
The last two (along with Vargr Chow) have actually appeared in my Traveller<BR>
campaign.  You always wanted to know what those really cheap food packs<BR>
tasted like...<BR>
<BR>
Purina Monkey Chow is readily edible by humans.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 11:18:32 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Purina<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 99-12-28 05:35:18 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<<  They also make Purina Bachelor Chow, but they CALL it Macaroni & Cheese...<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
I thought it was Rice/Wheat/Corn Chex?<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 09:22:04 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Drawing Program<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 28 Dec 1999, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
> Unfortunately, Roger <spit> ... I mean Unisys <spit> is taking<BR>
> the attitude that you _can_ be, and if they question you and you<BR>
> can't prove that you used a licensed program to create them, they<BR>
> will try to nail you for five grand.<BR>
<BR>
Uhh, check Unisys' web site. This is a net UL; they have _no_ interest,<BR>
intent, or legal grounds in suing content creators, or web site<BR>
designers, or ISP's or _anyone_ but the author of software that outputs<BR>
GIF files. <BR>
<BR>
This rumor has spread around the net like wildfire, and is about as<BR>
truthful as "The USPS has a bill in the works to charge for all e-mail",<BR>
"There's a boy in Britain dying of brain cancer and he wants you to send<BR>
him a card" or "Beware the Good Times Virus!!!".<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 10:34:07 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Kills Since 20 Oct 99<BR>
<BR>
>Checking my archives (nearly 7,000 posts since 20 Oct 99), I find the<BR>
>following information concerning TML keyboard kills (listd as:  Date,<BR>
>Victim, Killer):<BR>
<BR>
Wow. If you have that much spare time, care to help me mark dissection<BR>
labs? :-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 10:43:28 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Ethnic confusion<BR>
<BR>
>Actually, it doesn't matter. You see, after 300,000 years of<BR>
>*differing* selection pressures, the odds are that no matter *what*<BR>
>species you started with, more than a few of the enclaves would no<BR>
>longer be interfertile with the others.<BR>
<BR>
>Also, keep in mind that after 2-3 *million* years of (genetic)<BR>
>seperation, it's thought that humans and chimps may be interfertile.<BR>
>Nobody's had the guts to try it, given the ethical and moral dilemmas<BR>
>posed.<BR>
<BR>
So what you're saying is that 300k years is long enough for some groups to<BR>
drift far enough that they couldn't interbreed, yet 2000k years isn't long<BR>
enough that all groups would have?  Those are some error bars! :-)<BR>
<BR>
As to trying to breed chimps and humans, I'm kinda surprised that no one's<BR>
tried an in vitro fertilization, just to see what happens, if we really are<BR>
that close. Can you give me a reference for that?  (All my sources, which<BR>
admittedly aren't extensive, assume separate species with no interbreeding.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 10:53:59 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Ethnic confusion<BR>
<BR>
>Just wondering, what is the scientific name for Neanderthals?<BR>
<BR>
Homo neanderthalensis<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I was watching an interesing show on TLC or Discovery the other night that<BR>
>dealt with the end of the Neanderthals. Recent evidence (skeletons etc...)<BR>
>as<BR>
>pretty much ended the debate as to what happened to them. Seems like they<BR>
>were assimilated into Homosapiens.<BR>
<BR>
I think the debate is still going on.<BR>
<BR>
According to an article in the January 2000 Scientific American ("Once We<BR>
Were Not Alone", Ian Tattersal), H. sapiens and H. neanderthalensis<BR>
co-existed in the Levant for as long as they behaved similarly.  In Europe,<BR>
where H. sap. arrived with different technology, "the repeated pattern at<BR>
archaeological sites is one of short-term replacement, and there is no<BR>
convincing biological evidence of any intermixing in Europe. In the Levant,<BR>
the co-existence ceased-after about 60,000 years or so-at right about the<BR>
time that Upper Paleolithic-like tools begin to appear. About 40,000 years<BR>
ago the Neanderthals of the Levant yielded to a presumably culturally rich<BR>
H. sapiens, just as their European counterparts had."<BR>
<BR>
There's a lot more, which I don't have the time to type in. Might be<BR>
available online at www.sciam.com, or you can get the magazine at any<BR>
decent library.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 10:57:31 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Kills Since 20 Oct 99<BR>
<BR>
>I wish to offer my sincerest apologies for any unintentional destruction I<BR>
>may have caused.  As my number one New Years 2000 resolution I pledge to<BR>
>cease and desist humorous posts.  To achieve this goal I shall run all of my<BR>
>TML messages through my handy "Leonardizer", which is guaranteed to strip<BR>
>out any references to topics that are not deadly serious.  There is,<BR>
>however, a fifty-fifty chance that this will cause my posts to come through<BR>
>empty.<BR>
<BR>
You _nearly_ got me, but I was prepared!<BR>
<BR>
Repeat after me, children: First swallow, then read.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1591<BR>
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